CITY OF CARSON
REGULAR MEETING OF THE PROJECT AREA COMMITTEE
MINUTES
CARSON COMMUNITY CENTER
801 E. CARSON STREET; ROOM 209
CARSON, CALIFORNIA 90745
7:00 P.M.
AGENDA POSTED: MARCH 18, 2002
CALL TO ORDER: The meeting was called to order at 7:05 P.M. by Chair Robles Dewitt at the Carson Community Center, 801 E. Carson Street, Carson, California 90745.
ROLL CALL:
Present: Committee Members: Robles DeWitt, Acosta, J., Acosta, P., Calkins, Everett, Ferguson, Narez, Palicte, Pearl, Perrett, Rogers
Absent: Caldwell, Catbagan, Mason
Also Present: Margarita Cruz, Redevelopment Manager
Steve Masura, Redevelopment Project Manager
John Perfitt, Redevelopment Project Analyst
Robin Harris, Legal Counsel
Ernest Glover, GRC Redevelopment Consultants
Georgia Marquis,
Barry McDaniel,
Jeffrey Z.B. Springer,
Chinue Hemphill, Redevelopment Senior Clerk
Perrett: I’d like to see you add a section in there about information technology from now on.
Chair Robles DeWitt: Well the thing is we have to advertise and then it could be added for the next meeting for discussion. The problem is you have to post our agenda.
Perrett: Who do I talk to to post it.
Cruz: you can contact staff because we have to write the agenda up and post it prior to the actual meeting date for it to be a topic of discussion.
Chair Robles Dewitt: So we will put it down for the next meeting.
Perrett: And also I got this blue card here, and it is ridiculous to put 5 or 6 dates in PDF format on the website. HTML would be a heck of a lot faster, you should be user friendly.
Chair Robles Dewitt: That probably should come under PAC member comments, item number 6. Any other corrections or changes? Alright, the agenda will stand approved.
Chair Robles DeWitt: Did everybody get their minutes and have a chance to read the book, I mean the minutes? It was quite lengthy. Any changes or corrections to the minutes? If not a motion would be in order to approve the minutes as written.
Calkins: I second the motion.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Well I was calling for the motion.
J. Acosta: I motion.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Okay motion by Joe Acosta, seconded by Dennis. Any Discussion? All in favor?
Vote carried as follows:
Aye: Robles Dewitt, Acosta, J., Acosta, P., Calkins, Everett, Ferguson, Narez, Palicte, Pearl, Perrett, Rogers
No: None
Abstain: None
Chair Robles Dewitt: Okay, minutes are approved. Before leave that I think I shared this with you, they are pretty lengthy and maybe would could kind of summarize it a little. This is a verbatim.
Cruz: Yes, we had that discussion at one point, people were asking for a little more, a little bit less. I thought for the next one we could just do a verbatim so they could get a sense of them and then after that we could just go into straight action minutes.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Everybody okay with that?
Cruz: We’re going to have a speaker today and I thought we could have verbatim minutes so you would be able to recall everything that was actually said. So for this particular meeting I’m going to go ahead ask that we go ahead and do verbatim and then future meetings we could go back to simpler action minutes.
Chair Robles Dewitt: That means our jokes have to stay off for this go round.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Alright, Item (3.1) Reports, PAC Schedule. Did staff want to talk about that?
Cruz: Within the PAC Schedule there are two days that we are proposing we reschedule. One of them the reason why we are asking we reschedule is because typically we, the City staff goes to the International Conference of Shopping Centers. We are currently trying to market the city to retailers, restaurants, and other kinds of retail uses. A team of us goes and we actually set up a booth.
Calkins: Is April one or the May one?
Cruz: The May one. And so the PAC meeting for that week is the same week as the International Conference of Shopping Centers. Literally that particular conference is a national conference and every retailer shows up nationally, every developer shows up nationally. For the City of Carson it’s going to be a very good thing because they typically stick all the cities in one room and far away from all of the retailers. Through our connections we were able to get on the floor with the retailers and developers so we’ll get a lot exposure for our projections that we are trying to get to come to fruition. This also helps us create a positive image to retailers so that we can better attract retailers once they see that we are trying to market ourselves. The request is based on that.
Glover: The 4/18 meeting, the reason we requested that one be changed is because there are a number of conflicts with my schedule and other schedules.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Does everyone understand that we are changing the dates we were given last time for April to April 18th from the 11th?
Calkins: I didn’t see anything for the 16th one.
Cruz: The May 16th one is the International Conference of Shopping Centers.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Does anyone have a problem with these dates? Can we comply with them? Okay, then they are going to be duly noted as the changed dates absent we hear anything about it.
Calkins: Well do we need a motion?
Chair Robles Dewitt: No. Okay, did you want to share anymore on that?
Cruz: No, we have the Revised Project Formation Schedule. Ernie?
Glover: Yes, what it was, was basically the PAC schedule and I was going to brief you on some of the highlights. We have revised the schedule for actually hearing the project so that we have moved it down two weeks in time into late June. That’s basically it, all the rest of it appears on your PAC schedule. It looks like the June 18th hearing may have to slip, it’s one of those dates that’s right at the end so it moves around a bit.
Calkins: Now one of those things on the tentative schedule was the City Council was supposed to have an agenda item approving the release of the EIR and Project Plan to us on Tuesday’s meeting. Was it on there?
Glover: No, it wasn’t. It was put over until April because of some slow downs in the traffic studies.
Calkins: Okay, so we’re not going to get that tonight
Glover: No.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Do you have any idea when we will get it?
Glover: In mid April.
Calkins: At the April 18th meeting?
Glover: Yes that’s a good shot. We’ll try to get you some stuff before hand.
J. Acosta: We went by this schedule and we will be gone for the last 10 days of June.
Chair Robles Dewitt: The last 10 days?
J. Acosta: Yes, from the 20th to the 30th.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Well actually this is the public hearing of the Council. We usually don’t ask the committee to attend unless we have some points we want to raise.
Cruz: It shouldn’t be a problem.
Glover: Frankly, we’re not making any promises. There are some issues with the timing.
Chair Robles Dewitt: It’s a City Council meeting so all of us can be there. It’s not a mandatory situation. It’s a Council meeting, not our meeting. Okay, are we okay with the schedule? We’ll move on to Old Business PAC Vacancies.
ITEM NO. (4.1) PAC VACANCIES
Chair Robles Dewitt: This was an opportunity for everybody to bring in some new applications. So do we have any new applicants? I have some copies if you can think of anybody. Did you want to speak to this?
Glover: No, you covered it all. Except we’re going to have to remember to have a number of those applications at the next townhall so that we can pump the audience up a bit if there’s lack of interest.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Now there’s a deadline on this so?
Calkins: As of April 1st.
Chair Robles Dewitt: And the meeting is next week. Okay.
Harris: The copies we have have the old deadline of December.
Glover: Be advised. That’s a good point.
Chair Robles Dewitt: The Clerk’s office probably has…
Glover: If you give it to anybody just let them know that that deadline really doesn’t apply anymore.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Alright, any questions on that? Okay on to New Business.
ITEM NO. (5.1) NEW BUSINESS
Cruz: We had discussed at one point in time that you would like to deal with the eminent domain issues right away as opposed to when we were going to talk about it. We have two maps here, and I know they’re kind of far, but we’ll be passing out maps in just a little while. If you recall we have two existing projects already. The pink area is the new project we are proposing, project area 4. I know a lot people were wondering why certain areas have been included. There are some different reasons why. I just wanted to let you know that related to what the overall City vision is to put this together. Redevelopment helps to pay for public infrastructure. We’re a no/low property tax city, so redevelopment tax increments are actually used throughout the city for improvement. We don’t have many or any residential in our project area. I just want to make this really clear, when we looked into putting some residential our intent was not to turn around and condemn all this out and make it into a big shopping center or a big industrial park. That wasn’t the intent. I’ve heard people think that we’re going to buy up all of Keystone and turn it into a big industrial park. That wasn’t the intent at all. They’ll talk about it next week a little bit more in the General Plan segment when we talk about land uses a little more. But our actual intent was to spend funds on streets. We have flooding issues; we have street improvements that need to be worked on. Things like that, to actually upgrade those neighborhoods. Any acquisition is totally tentative at this point. We’re looking at those areas along Carson Street and Main Street. When I say Carson Street, we had talked a little bit about setting some kind of main street or downtown area along Carson. We don’t have enough restaurants in town. When I think of retail, I think about services for the community. If you can shop locally that’s nice. In the community I used to live in we didn’t have a place where you could just buy a pair of socks. Those are just simple little things, to shop locally, to shop close by. Creating a sense of place, a central downtown area. We’re possibly looking at our main corridors, Carson and Main, Carson and Figueroa, Carson and Avalon and looking at commercial areas and focusing there. Also, recognizing that you can’t have retail along the whole strip and we’re looking at other kinds of residential along Carson Street. We don’t have anything in mind, and we’re actually going to be contracting with and architect in the hopes of using this body as a sounding board to direct that architect to come up with some various visions for Carson Street, as well as Main Street to come up with some ideas of what could be possibly be developed and what kind of angles we could come up with. This would just be a visioning process. There would be recommendations to the Planning Commission and the City Council. We won’t work on that visioning process until after the project area is in place. I do want to mention that we need to think about this area here in Keystone. I understand for a lot of people in consideration of all of the potential development we might want to think about putting buffers here along Main Street. This will help transition some of the industrial and protect the residential. Those are some of the conflicts we’re talking about now we . The project area formation process is just one step in this process. The PAC is a body that stays in place after the project area is formed. We’re hoping you, as a body will help us in developing some of those concepts. With that I would like to go into what we’re going to be talking about today, and that would be eminent domain. We asked…let me first introduce everyone. First, I want to introduce John Perfitt. He’s a new employee with us. He’s a Redevelopment Analyst with the City of Carson and he will be assisting us in being our main support person to this Project Area Committee. We have all met Steven Masura and he is the lead person in the project area formation, managing a lot of the documents, EIR, and Redevelopment Plan and things like that. Then we have Jed Springer. Jed Springer is a…he works out of the firm of Demetrious, Del Guercio, Springer, and Francis. His basic law practice is in the field of eminent domain. He has worked extensively in both the public sector and the private sector. I noticed that Mr. Perrett was passing around an article of a particular case of his, City of Lancaster vs. Costco. Mr Springer was the lawyer on that case, representing the 99¢ Store. He understands very well what the business issues are for the private side as well as the public side. He has also worked extensively with the MTA and the Alameda Corridor. Then we have two representatives from the Pacific Relocations Consultants. We are not going to go into a lot of detail about relocations…they are the people who prepared the information in your packet, but to the extent that you have any questions, specifically on relocation, these are the people who can answer questions. We have Barry McDaniel, he is one of the principals with Pacific Relocations Consultants and he often does a lot of business relocations. When we need to relocate a business, we talk to him and bring him in to handle relocating the business. Then we have Georgia Marquis, who also works with Pacific Relocations Consultants and she often is the person who handles a lot of residential relocations. The reason I asked them here is because I wanted to give you a sense of the key people we work with that do this kind of work for us. Okay, with that, I will introduce Jed Springer who will give a presentation.
Jed Springer: Thank you. Margarita, I thought it might be helpful to first of all go over the 8 ½ x 11 handout and the 600-foot thing.
Cruz: We talked about condemnation and the use of eminent domain. In this map you see the whole area is pink this Project Area No. 4. What we are talking about eventually this board will have to come to a decision on different alternatives on what the limits of eminent domain will be. Staff is putting out the initial proposal; this is just the initial proposal for you to respond to. The area to use eminent domain powers is along Carson Street and along Main Street, and also some of the trailer parks. What we are talking about are the substandard parts; the small areas that look bad, not the mobile homes; for eminent domain. Everything else we would turn around within the General Plan and have that omitted. And this map here, this shows the possibility of what we’re talking about. And we’re looking at possibly going 600 ft. from the mid center of Carson Street down from Carson Street on both sides. The reason why we chose 600 ft. was because that is generally the depth needed when doing any kind of real development, whether it is a shopping center or some other thing. It’s not necessarily something that we may use, it’s just an initial proposal. When looking over on Main Street, we’re looking at the possibility of just focusing on this 600 ft…
Calkins: But the area along Main Street or actually off the Main Street is in Redevelopment Area 1, which you don’t have eminent domain power over currently.
Cruz: Yes we do.
Calkins: You do?
Cruz: Yes.
Calkins: I was under the impression that since there was no PAC…you didn’t have eminent domain.
Cruz: You have to have a substantial number of residential, in this portion of Project Area 1 there was no residential. That was done a long time ago…
Glover: Done well before the advent of the modern PAC laws.
Cruz: And just about two years ago, there was an amendment to extend eminent domain powers in both project areas. So this, like I said, is just an initial proposal; something for you to look at and we can discuss it later. With this in context, I will again introduce Jed Springer.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Before Jed…I have a question to ask staff. Is this common knowledge, are we the first to see this?
Cruz: This is not common knowledge. This is a proposal that staff is presenting to you to look at to get reccomendations from you.
Chair Robles Dewitt: At our townhall meeting next week, will these people be informed? This is what you want to work on quickly, right?
Cruz: We don’t want to work on it by what I mean quickly, but that’s something we need to discuss…
Calkins: Is this something that’s going to be handed over to the newspapers next Tuesday at the townhall meeting or is this something we have to keep quiet?
Cruz: This is something for discussion purposes, this nothing set in stone. It’s a first cut. Your recommendation may be to eliminate even further. This is just a first cut purpose at this time.
Perrett: Are you saying that this round thing around is the 600-ft.?
Cruz: Yes.
Acosta: Does that also apply to Main Street?
Cruz: No.
Calkins: No, Main Street would just be the stuff that’s currently not in Redevelopment Area 1, just that second row of properties back there along…
Everett: What is the proposed north and south boundaries with this?
Cruz: 600 ft. either way, no specific boundaries. This is just a proposal.
Everett: So this necessarily isn’t going to stop at 215th Street?
Cruz: Not necessarily.
Glover: This is the first cut.
Cruz: This is just an example of what could be done.
Springer: First of all I would like to note that as Margarita was saying, it is very important to understand that there are different reasons for having properties within a redevelopment area. There are limitations on the use of funds, so that there is a good reason to include residential within the redevelopment area because funds associated with redevelopment funds can be used within that redevelopment area, for example, to provide for advancements in infrastructure and other improvements to residential neighborhoods. That would be a reason, even though there is no eminent domain power in respect to those properties.
Cruz: Somebody asked the question, what infrastructure meant.
Springer: Basically roads, sewers, electricity, utilities.
Perrett: Did we have to pay for sewers for that Carson Towne Center?
Calkins: That’s Redevelopment Area 1…
Chair Robles Dewitt: Wait, let’s establish some protocol. A question is asked by a committee member, let’s let the staff respond and then if you want to add to that, but the staff should first come from staff then jump in.
Cruz: The Carson Towne Center, that’s the new development place your speaking of? That was Project Area 1.
Perrett: 19 years ago in July they dug up the street, Moneta Street, and they put in a great big sewer line and it ended right there at the Carson Towne Center is or was supposed to be. Five years later they came in and dug it up again and they put in 20 or 30 tons of reinforced steel and concrete. When I had some plumbing done back in those days, the plumber said that there was a problem with the pitch and I needed to be put in this big sewer line. Then just recently they took down the fence at the Carson Towne Center and they cut into that sewer and that’s gonna make excess capacity. When I look at the map it looks like your going right along the sewer line. They never had people working on the sewer until after they put in that.
Cruz: That’s actually part of the plan. All the public infrastructure improvements have to be specifically listed, so we would have to provide you with a list of all of them and you will get that at a later time. At this point we’re just going to go to the eminent domain procedures so you can understand that whole process.
Perrett: Well he said infrastructure.
Cruz: Yeah, I know, but that’s just one of the things. We’ll go into the actual infrastructure list at a later time.
Springer: Okay, so let me confine my comments to eminent domain procedural requirements, eminent domain compensation, and relocation benefits for businesses. First of all there are a few constitutional limitations on the exercise of power of eminent domain. Most important one in the state of California is that there must be a statutory grant of a power of eminent domain criminal legislature to a condemning agency before that agency can exercise the power of eminent domain. However, virtually all municipal agencies have received grants of power of eminent domain from the state legislature. Redevelopment agencies are one of those and redevelopment agencies have received fairly broad grants of the power of eminent domain from the state legislature. However, the agency may limit itself in the redevelopment plan for a project area to the specific use of the power of eminent domain. Here for example, as here proposed by staff to be limited within a particular area mainly a distance from Carson Street. The other main constitutional limitation is that the agency must pay just compensation, which is defined as the fair market value of the property. So there is actually no constitutional limitation against having your property taken by eminent domain. The fundamental constitutional promise is that when the property is taken, just compensation must be paid. Okay, what are the steps…I’m going to talk outside of the redevelopment process and just focus on eminent domain. So everything we’re going to talk about assumes the Redevelopment Plan has been adopted and the agency has been provided with the power of eminent domain in the plan and this assumes that the agency is now proceeding to exercise it’s power of eminent domain within the limited area.
So what are the steps…first the agency must have the property appraised. Basically the appraiser will come out to the property, examine the property, collect comparable sale time information in the market place, and form an opinion of the fair market value of the property. The appraiser then prepares a report and provides the report to the agency. The next step is that the agency must make a written offer at the appraised value to the property owner, so the agency can’t take a look at the appraisal report and decide to offer 75% or 50%. That is not permitted in eminent domain. The Agency must offer the full appraised amount. Assuming that the property owner does not agree with the written offer, then the agency may proceed to give notice of a hearing on a resolution of necessity. That hearing would be held before the Redevelopment Agency Board and at the Agency board’s meeting, the property owner would have the right to make a presentation and give whatever reasons the owner would feel appropriate to ask the agency to not acquire the property by eminent domain. For example, the property owner might say please let me redevelop the property myself. For example, the owners of the substandard mobile home parks suddenly come up with a great plan and disway everybody from having to go condemnation and they clean it up and develop something themselves. You receive notice of the hearing. At the hearing the property owner has the right to appear and be heard, and in order to proceed to exercise the power of eminent domain in the state of California, a condemning agency must adopt a resolution of necessity.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Will we be permitted to ask question during the presentation?
Springer: I’m here being paid by these folks, so I’m at your beckon call.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Well, we want to make you earn your dollar. I have a question. You’re talking about the property owner, but what about in the case of a business that is not the owner of the property? Do these steps apply to them?
Springer: Most condemning agencies provide notice of the hearing on the resolution of necessity to the business owner, there is no statutory requirement that agencies give notice to business owners. That does not exist. Most do, the ones that I represent do give notice to the businesses. A business tenant would not receive an offer because they don’t own the property. Occasionally, a tenant would have a lease hold interest on the property. This is pretty rare, where the business is paying far below market rent and there may come a time when the business has an interest in the property itself, and therefore, needs to be included in the written offer made by the Agency. That a very rare circumstance. Typically, a business owner does not receive a written offer by an agency; however, through a lease hold interest a business owner will own a compensable interest in a piece of property and will need to be included. Also sometimes, a business may have substantial trade fixtures and equipment, and if so most condemning agencies make offers for trade fixtures and equipment that amount to improvements pertaining to the realty. In those limited circumstances a business can be brought into either the appraisal process or the written offer process. Most times they are aware of the notice hearing of necessity. Did I answer your question?
Chair Robles Dewitt: Yes.
Springer: Okay…
Perrett: I have a question. How do you know you are getting the best possible appraisal?
Springer: Appraisal is not a science, it’s somewhat of an art.
Calkins: Could you offer your own appraisal at the hearing?
Springer: No. Actually the amount of money that should be paid for the property is not to be determined at that hearing. That’s one of the issues that is not decided at the hearing. You can always negotiate. Say for example, after you receive your written offer and as the property owner you feel it’s substantially more valuable, the property owner is free to provide his own appraisal to the agency and ask for consideration.
Calkins: That is my question. Where does negotiation enter into this…
Springer: I’ll get to how it’s decided if there is no agreement, but basically anywhere along the way the property owners and the Agency are free to negotiate and they are wise to negotiate because people like me are expensive.
Calkins: I’m just wondering if it’s better for the Agency to start negotiations before they condemn the property.
Springer: They must. The adoption of the resolution of necessity comes after the appraisal, after the written offer, so that there is a time period between providing the written offer and the hearing on the Resolution of Necessity. If the owner wishes to make use of that time period productively, then they are free to do so. They Agency has to adopt the Resolution of Necessity to exercise the power eminent domain. What is determined in the Resolution of Necessity, it’s four things: (1) the Agency must determine that the public interest and necessity requires the proposed project; (2) determine that the project is planned and located in the manner that is most compatible to the greatest public good; (3) the property is described resolution is necessary for the proposed project; (4) the Agency must find that the written offer required by the government code section 7267.2, has been made to the owner.
Rogers: Can we go back to the appraisal? It’s only one appraisal and you don’t have three and choose the most appropriate one?
Springer: The Agency is only required to obtain one appraisal.
Calkins: That goes back to your right to have an appraisal and negotiate with them.
Cruz: When you are using federal funds to acquire, they are required to do a review appraisal, to have the second appraiser review the first appraisers work. That’s only if using federal funds.
Calkins: It all depends on where the grant is coming from.
Glover: Don’t some agencies actually use two or three appraisers just as a matter of policy?
Springer: Usually the reason that happens is that some much time lapses between when the first appraisal is done and then you try to do a project and for whatever reason the market changes and then the property is no longer suitable for that and then you wait five years and there is a new project, you get it reappraised. That is not a good idea in my judgement, it’s not a wise use of agency money to get a bunch of appraisals. Most of the property owners don’t trust any of the appraisals the agency gets. If they feel the property is worth more, they are not going to listen to one that is $10,000 higher. In my judgment it’s a waste of money. Sometimes the appraisers have a difference in opinion on the highest and best use. Maybe the Agency appraiser felt the highest and best use was industrial. Maybe the property owner’s opinion is that the highest and best use is for a retail development.
Everett: What if they both have that same use, but different dollar values?
Springer: It’s a lot easier than people think. People think it’s a mystery, but when you get two appraisal reports you can look at the data to determine how they came up with two different opinions. Most of the time they use different data.
Calkins: From the recent sales the prices given on recent sales is effected by the development that goes on around the time of sale. So if you appraise your house today it will be worth X, but now that the Redevelopment Agency has put a Wal-Mart next door and they want to eminent domain your house they will now appraise your house at X, which is different from what X was before they put the Wal-Mart there. So now your house is worth less, or maybe it’s worth more.
Springer: That’s a very picky question that eminent domain lawyers love. There are very specific rules pertaining on how you proceed to appraise a property in these circumstances. Property which part of the project, so you’re taking property for the Wal-Mart project, the Wal-Mart isn’t built yet. It is the rule of law that the property owner can not use the public project as the basis for claiming a higher value because it is the project itself that is making the value. Let’s say you are the lucky son-of-a-bitch that owns property next to the Wal-Mart project and Wal-Mart gets approved and you’re not in that project, but six months later the Agency decides that they would love to have Costco next to the Wal-Mart. Now the rules of eminent domain say that you get to have that enhanced value from the Wal-Mart, not the Costco. Eminent domain action, what happens is that in order to seize property in the state California, an agency isn’t permitted to send the police out to grab the property. The only legal way to acquire property by eminent domain in the state of California is by filing eminent domain action in a court of law. Only a court can issue and order that can transfer title in the state of California. The Agency files a complaint on eminent domain, it looks like any other action in Superior Court, except it’s reversed. The defendant is the one getting money in the proceeding, the plaintiff isn’t. The Agency may obtain an order for prejudgment possession. This right enables public agencies to proceed with public projects even while they for the proceeding to march through the court.
Everything I’ve stated so far is bad for the owner, now the good stuff starts to happen. Next in the proceeding is an exchange of trial appraisals. This is where the property owner usually gets their appraisals going, and now they submit their appraisals and you know what the argument is about. Exchange the trial appraisals and then after that exchange of appraisals there is a mandatory settlement conference. If you don’t settle then you go to trial. What are the elements of compensation. First of all, the fair market value of the property taken. Fair market value is defined to be the highest on the date evaluation that would be agreed to by knowledgeable buyers and sellers. Other elements of compensation include the fair market value trade fixtures and equipment, which constitutes improvement pertaining to the realty. It’s like a highly defined term, and almost impossible to express in words exactly what that means. The final element of eminent domain compensation is loss of business/goodwill for business impacted by the project. Let’s say you have a business on Carson Street, let’s say it a small…what’s a typical business on Carson Street?
Rogers: Hair salon.
Everett: Auto repair.
Springer: Okay, hair salon. Hair salon, these are easy to relocate because just about every zoning code permits them to go there. People like Barry McDaniel, and his assistant Ms. Marquis, go out and they find 20 different leads for businesses, and they say please go out and look at these places, I think they would be suitable for your business. You have the hair salon and you move the hair salon. Most hair salons are like this…the customers love the proprietor and they will follow the proprietor how far, Barry?
McDaniel: For a hair salon, about a couple miles.
Springer: I’d say at least a ½ a mile. So if you relocate the business, your customers follow, and there is no increased rent, then there is not going to be much loss of goodwill. What was the other one, auto repair? This one is going to be tough. Almost no city likes auto repair businesses anymore. They’ve got these funny zoning codes, so it’s hard to find a place for them. A lot of these guys don’t relocated and they may feel the only place 3 miles away is too far for their customers to follow them. Since they are not able to relocate despite reasonable efforts, then they may qualify for an award for loss of business goodwill. They would have to prove by showing their income tax returns that they have a profitable business and that they possess and enjoy goodwill and that they could not relocated using reasonable efforts. In that circumstance they would qualify for an award for loss of business goodwill. That’s the nature of this type of reward, only when there is a loss and when they can’t relocate. Then we have a topic that Barry McDaniel is much more qualified to talk about than I am. I only know business relocation, I don’t know residential. Relocation benefits, basically…informational assistance. This is primary leads for relocation sites. This is the most important part in my opinion because it is just so hard to find relocation sites. Let’s say you find a site, then you ask Barry what do I qualify for. You get your reasonable moving expenses and that includes packing, crating, unpacking, moving, and setting them up. You are also entitled to reestablishment expenses, but these are really limited to $10,000.
McDaniel: There is no cap on the first one.
Springer: You are also reasonable expenses for searching for a replacement site, limited to $1,000. If you don’t want to go through the paperwork for all the other stuff, you can qualify for one, one-time payment of $25,000 if you qualify with $20,000 in net income. As for homeowners and residential tenants
Perrett: What about the people with business licenses and home occupations? There are 735 registered.
Springer: So are you saying…
Calkins: I guess his question is, are they a business relocation or a home relocation?
McDaniel: It’s kind of a judgement call, it depends on the complexity of the home business. If there’s a lot of fixtures then they may want consider it a business. If it’s a business that is just primarily at home writing novels, but they still considered a business then you may just consider that as part of the relocation of the residential.
Perrett: It is not considered. The City of Carson comes out and posts a notice on the door saying if you don’t have license we’re going to take you to jail or court.
Springer: Almost always you do better as residential than business
McDaniel: There is not a lot…
Perrett: The City of Carson classifies them as home occupations, people’s livelihoods. Are you going to take away someone’s livelihood?
Springer: No, no, no. Believe me, the doors of money opportunity open when you’re a resident and you need to be relocated by an agency. For the first time tenants qualify for enough money to make a pretty nice down payment on a condo. Homeowners do very well, you want to be that residential tenant.
McDaniel: You’re going to be provided the greatest financial benefit. If there is a homeowner that has a home business in there, they may be considered for not only the residential benefits, but they may be considered for business benefits. Let’s talk about residential a little bit. As Jed talked about in his presentation, the first bullet point was the discussion about providing assistance to the business owners in finding a replacement location. We’re going to do the same thing with residential homeowners and tenants. For example, Georgia would be out there knocking on your door saying she wanted to find out some particular information about what your particular residential need is whether you’re a homeowner or a tenant and where you’d like to move to, if you have to move. You would get assistance in filling out forms and paperwork and having to get payments made by the City. You wouldn’t have to do that yourself, we’d have someone there that’s a relocation consultant help you out with that process. What do homeowners get? Homeowner’s get moving expenses. They get all their personal property moved to the new location and they can either have a professional mover move them or they can have a fixed move payment. They get a replacement housing payment, a calculation of the difference between the fair market value and what a comparable unit would be on the market currently. In addition they will also pay for any one time closing costs, i.e., appraisal fees, escrow fees, documentation fees, things of that nature. They will also pay for interest differential. If you had a low interest rate at the time the Agency came along at a time when interest rates were spiked for some reason, they would pay that increased interest cost for the balance of the loan that you previously had and for the duration of the loan. So you get moving payment, increase in the replacement housing cost, you get closing cost, and you get interest differential payment.
Calkins: According to the information you gave us, up to a maximum $22,500?
McDaniel: Yes, there is a cap of $22, 500, but the law brings into play what’s called last resort housing. If you can not rehouse somebody within their financial needs at $22,500, then the cap goes away and it’s whatever is necessary to rehouse them. So let’s talk about residential tenants. Tenants pretty much the same thing. We’re going to provide them with assistance in finding a place, walk them through the process, same moving payment, and they are going to get a rental assistance payment. Rental assistance payment is the difference between what they are currently paying for rent and what comparable rent would be for a replacement unit. There is another factor that comes into play and that’s income. If there is a differential, by law the City or the Redevelopment Agency is required to pay that differential for 42 months. This also has a cap of $5250, but if a person is low income and you can not rehouse them within that $5250, then the cap goes off. If a person wants to rent something more expensive, they can do that. The Agency only has the obligation to pay up to the comparable amount. If somebody doesn’t want to rent and they say this is an opportunity…I’ve always wanted to buy a house, this is something the redevelopment agencies always encourage. They may have other programs, first time buyer programs that can be added to the rental assistance program as well gives them the opportunity to use this money as down payment assistance on the purchase of a home. What do you think Georgia? What’s the percentage that people use that money as down payment?
Marquis: It depends on the projects…we’ve had up to 50% purchase.
McDaniel: It really is an opportunity for someone who may not ever have the opportunity to buy or it would have taken them a lot longer to accumulate. It’s an opportunity for them to get into home ownership. That’s something we always encourage.
Cruz: What if you have two families in a two-bedroom house?
McDaniel: Typically that’s an overcrowded unit. When you talk about comparable that also means decent, safe, and sanitary. Decent, safe, and sanitary generally means two people in a bedroom and one in a common area is the maximum number of people that can stay in a dwelling unit. So if you have a one bedroom, the maximum number would be three. So in Margarita’s case where you have a lot of overcrowding, we could not rehouse those people in another two-bedroom unit. With twelve people in a two-bedroom unit, you’d need a six-bedroom unit. The chances of finding that are slim to none and more than likely they are not a single family. We’re finding that these are multiple families living together out of convenience because they can’t afford the rent so they live together. Typically in those situations we split up the household and give them each a benefit payment and put them in housing that’s comparable and decent, safe, and sanitary. Any other questions I can answer?
Rogers: In the city of L.A. there is no law like that.
McDaniel: There is no law saying landlords can only allow a certain number of people in their unit, but when it comes to relocation, they have an obligation to put people in sanitary housing.
Palicte: What if they want to move out of the City of Carson?
McDaniel: That’s a good question and it goes for both businesses and residences. You can move anywhere you want, you can move to Florida, Las Vegas, or Beverly Hills. The Agency only has to pay for moving your personal property within 50 miles. If you want to move 100 miles away, they’ll help you, but you may incur some costs. The benefits would apply in other areas.
Everett: What if a property owner bought a property 60 days before they found out the property was going to be bought?
McDaniel: They would get what Georgia?
Marquis: $5250.
McDaniel: Yeah, they’d get a payment up to $5250 and the moving payment.
Everett: They would get a payment up to $5250?
McDaniel: Yeah, in other words they’d still get their house purchased by the City, but they wouldn’t get the differential payment more than the $5250.
Everett: What I’m saying is if they bought the property right before the City bought the property, they will have paid just as much as the City for the property and their closing costs are going to be more than $5250 so they’re going to be out more than that. So they’d come up with a negative, right?
Marquis: Not likely, if they’re going to get back what they paid for it. If they bought the house within 60 days then they’re going to get back that money and actually that $5250 would only extend if they found that there was a replacement housing payment to begin with.
Springer: Doesn’t the Agency have to pick up the escrow costs?
McDaniel: Yeah. What would they pay…
Marquis: That’s up to the Agency’s discretion.
McDaniel: Yeah, and there is some discretion on the Agency when difficult situations arise that put people in financial hardships, they have the discretion to exceed what these statutory limits are.
Calkins: I would believe that the rules are there to prevent squatters to come in and purchase a home and get the full benefit.
McDaniel: Exactly.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Speculators would be the word.
Glover: Just reasonably how far ahead of the actual purchase would one know if eminent domain was being anticipated?
McDaniel: That’s a very good point Ernie. I would think that there is a requirement by the real estate broker to disclose…
Glover: So if it’s a 90 day move it’s seems to me the new homeowner also owns a new brokerage.
McDaniel: Yes. Any other questions I can answer?
Calkins: Typically how often would a property be condemned within that 60 day of somebody buying the house?
Everett: It’s not condemned.
McDaniel: It’s 90 days, oh excuse me it’s 180 days from the date of written offer. Since months essentially before an offer is made, they would have had to have bought it before that time. Most redevelopment projects know from nine months to a year.
Everett: So as a realtor, if a property was being sold in the area where could I go to find out if that property was going to be taken by eminent domain?
Cruz: Usually, realtors will the Redevelopment Agency or make a call to us and they’ll ask if there are any plans for the area.
Everett: Would you tell them point blank that this property is going to be taken?
McDaniel: They couldn’t make that statement.
Cruz: Unless there is a specific offer or authorization we couldn’t make that kind of statement.
McDaniel: You could say, however, based on the map that is finally approved by the Agency, well it is in the area that they have condemnation power over and it is conceivable.
Calkins: What are the rights of the property owner to sell the property to someone else after the letter of notice?
Chair Robles Dewitt: I think we’re all skirting around the disclosure issue. Is there a requirement by the real estate broker to disclose that?
Springer: What happens is the Redevelopment Plan is recorded and the Plan becomes something that would be disclosed in the right of policy and that is what would tell the broker that they need to call the Redevelopment Agency and basically you become aware of the project because the Agency needs to send out an RFP to proposed developers for a site, let’s say Wal-Mart. Typically the planning process for a Wal-Mart would be one year. So that if there was an RFP to build a Wal-Mart in a particular 10-acre area, that would be something that you would immediately learn by calling the Redevelopment Agency.
Cruz: There is also the issue of owner participation letters.
Chair Robles Dewitt: One of the common questions that I’m asked by people that could possibly be effected in there homes is that it would depress their property value once this redevelopment area is confirmed. Then in turn the value of their property will not increase because of the potential for eminent domain.
Springer: That is a concern that is frequently expressed and almost never realized because normally the Redevelopment Plan provides for very significant infusions of cash to the redevelopment area to improve neighborhoods and that’s why normally redevelopment is attached to improving neighborhoods. It is very rare that it casts a cloud. Yes, that is…
Calkins: The problem is I’m going to have a hard time selling my house if the title says they’re going to put a Wal-Mart on my property.
Springer: No the title report doesn’t say that. It says you’re in a redevelopment area. 90% of city areas in Southern California are in redevelopment plan areas. That doesn’t mean eminent domain is happening all over the place.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Another factor to that would be…
Springer: The reason it is done that way is to bring money to the home areas. It’s a financing tool.
Chair Robles Dewitt: It’s a financing issue, it’s a financing tool providing the redevelopment agency is healthy. What if the Agency were to extend itself? We are relying on the fact that our redevelopment agency will be a healthy agency. Right? Decisions made by the policymakers could effect where or not our redevelopment agency is healthy.
Springer: That’s true or you could have a dumb City Council and they could say we’re going to condemn everybody in this area. Then there might be a problem.
Chair Robles Dewitt: So it goes back to trust me, I’m from the government. I’m here to help you. Because we are now identified as the PAC committee these questions are now coming to us.
Springer: It’s important for the PAC board to know how the redevelopment project will improve our community and that’s something you should know. If you’re not satisfied with that answer then you should be concerned.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Well you don’t leave me with a warm fuzzy feeling, but we can move on.
McDaniel: Anymore relocation questions I can answer?
Chair Robles Dewitt: Are there any other questions?
Everett: On the first page of this hand out that you gave us it says compensation. I think we got a copy of 333.91. What does 333.42 say?
Springer: It says you can condemn property within a redevelopment area.
Everett: Okay, well I didn’t see…
Harris: What it is that redevelopment plans may provide for the agency to acquire by gift, purchase, lease, or condemnation all apart of the real property in the project area. That’s 333.42 of the Health and Safety Code.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Okay, shall we go on?
ITEM NO. (6) PAC MEMBER COMMENTS
Perrett: The blue card says go to www.ci.carson.ca.us for a tentative schedule of meetings.
Chair Robles Dewitt: You’re referring to the website and then getting to the website is the problem?
Perrett: The problem is the website is supposed to be user friendly and I finally had to call somebody who told me it was in PDF format and that I need the Adobe Acrobat Reader. That isn’t being user friendly. You’ve got six or seven dates on there and all you have to have is an HTML file and they download instantaneously practically. PDF file you first have to load Acrobat.
Cruz: We can do that. That’s not a problem.
Calkins: I didn’t know our agenda was on the…
Rogers: They told me when I called up and told them I got the wrong letter and they told me what to do.
Calkins: I know the Redevelopment Agency and the City Council Agenda were online, but I didn’t know ours was online.
Perrett: The told me that the Redevelopment Agency and minutes were on the site and that’s not true.
Masura: Not until after they are approved.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Let’s clarify, we are not the Redevelopment Agency, we are the PAC.
Perrett: I was suggesting that we have our own website.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Well let’s clarify. Margarita, is there a separate website on PAC activities.
Cruz: No, you don’t have a separate website.
Calkins: There is an events page that has the agendas of all the commissions and committees and date for the next meeting for each commission and committee, but that is just a little square box that says project area committee…
Cruz: Wait, let me let John answer that. John is new to us, but he knows a lot about this kind of stuff.
Perfitt: On the homepage at the bottom if you scroll down it says schedules and meetings and it links to the City Council agenda, and if you scroll down that page it’s where the location of the PDF files, the Acrobat readable files are located. We will work to get the approved minutes on there as well.
Calkins: But that’s for the City Council.
Perfitt: No that’s for us. It’ll say the PAC meeting agenda for 3/21, I know for a fact it’s there, this agenda that you’re looking at today. That’s where everything will reside. It’s basically go to the homepage down at the bottom click go over and go down to the bottom there. We will do everything we can do get the approved minutes on there as well. Those may have to be in PDF format.
Perrett: Yeah, but HTML files are quicker and easier to use, and there is no reason for it to be a PDF file because you’re not reading typefaces or anything.
Perfitt: We’ll do everything we can to get everything in HTML.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Any other PAC member comments.
Rogers: Well on this card…supposedly everyone got it, but I’m a residential tenant and maybe they didn’t send them to apartment buildings. I didn’t receive on, but I’m having trouble with my mail.
Calkins: I just assume they got the list from the post office and delivered them to every address within the project area.
Glover: The way the list is developed is we don’t get it from the post office, but you’ve got the right idea. We buy it from mailing houses. It theoretically has all the addresses. Usually, there’s a slippage.
Rogers: I never received one. Joe Palicte lives in the same building as I.
Glover: Nothing is every perfect. The records at the post office may not contain all the units.
Perrett: If there is any reason the post office can think of for not delivering it, they won’t.
Glover: In defense of the post office, I haven’t heard the thing from staff that I usually hear, which is why are we getting so many returns.
Calkins: Do you know how many blue cards you mailed out?
Glover: Not off the top of my head.
Chair Robles Dewitt: It was every parcel that…
Glover: No, it was every parcel, every resident, every business in the area.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Well in the case of a business where the business is not the owner of the property…
Glover: They still get it. They’re still on the list. We try to get as close as we possible can.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Any other comments by PAC members? Let me bring you up to date on the issue we had the with the City Attorney. The Council did not approve us hiring our own legal counsel and that was no reflection on Robin, we just wanted and independent…there wasn’t really an opportunity to speak the Council was pretty set.
Calkins: Well staff’s recommendation was to deny us in the first place.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Well there were two alternatives. One was to deny was to…
Calkins: Oh, I thought there were two points. One was to grant the money and two give it to the City Attorney as our attorney.
Cruz: It was either/or.
Calkins: Oh, it was either/or.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Approve the PAC request and allocate funds for the PAC to select it’s own legal counsel or deny the request for independent counsel and appoint the existing City Attorney to advise and work with the PAC. They went with the latter. You didn’t have to be genius to see that was the way it was going to go. I do want to point out though that if down the road there is no reason why we can’t raise our own money and hire our own attorney individually or collectively. We can revisit that some other time. There is some new legislation that may go through this year, which would allow funds and that we could hire our own attorney. That’s the update on that.
ITEM NO. (7) STAFF COMMENTS
Cruz: We put in your packets a conference call, the Introduction to Redevelopment Conference. It’s an entry-level conference that just roundly discusses redevelopment. We don’t have the ability to send everybody, but we thought suggest that maybe two or three members would like to attend we could cover that. It’s a local conference. Just wanted to let people know about that opportunity.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Are there any members that may be interested in going?
Rogers: I might be.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Okay so we might have two?
Cruz: Who is that?
Chair Robles Dewitt: Mr. Perrett and Ms. Rogers.
Cruz: If you would contact John on Monday to confirm your commitment, we would be happy to make arrangements.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Are we members of this? This is a $375 ticket.
Rogers: What’s your phone number?
Perfitt: (310) 830-7600 extension 1422, and I think Steve said at the last meeting if you have any questions at all on any matters, feel free to pick up the phone and call me and I’ll get back to you usually the same day
Cruz: Also, if you would like to have private meetings with us discussing things in more detail, which can go through John, I am also available.
Glover: Just potentially for the next agenda we may want to put eminent domain discussion to pursue what we started tonight.
Chair Robles Dewitt: What do you mean pursue it?
Glover: Talk about it and talk about some of the alternatives.
Calkins: I’d like to point out that maybe we should allow room for stuff on the agenda if any questions come up at the townhall meeting next week.
Cruz: Good point.
Calkins: Cause I don’t know what the public going to ask and it may be something we need to discuss…
Chair Robles Dewitt: For your information I did ask to have a Spanish interpreter there because there is a neighborhood that wants to be at the next meeting. I think it will be an extensive question and answer type meeting if nothing else.
Glover: That’s what we’re there for.
ITEM NO. (9) ANNOUNCE TIME AND PLACE OF NEXT MEETING
Chair Robles Dewitt: Time and place of the next meeting, it was listed on the sheet wasn’t it? Do we know if we’re going to be meeting here again.
Calkins: Well it got changed right? On item 3.1 we changed the time of the meeting.
Cruz: We’re going to have to get back to you on the time and place. We’ll make sure we call you on the phone as well. We wanted to approve the date before we set the time. Now that we’ve approved the date we can send out special notices with the specific location.
Calkins: I just think that at the first PAC meeting we decided that 7:00 p.m. was the appropriate time, right? I don’t know, is there a motion to change that at the next meeting?
Cruz: No, it’s still 7:00 p.m, on April 18th, 2002.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Yeah, there’s no change.
Calkins: Okay.
Chair Robles Dewitt: Okay let your neighbors or anyone that’s expressed interest in what we’re doing let them know about next week’s meeting. It’s a public meeting.
Cruz: One last staff comment. We have lots of food here and I assume people don’t always have time to have dinner and with that assumption we’ll have food when they get here.
Rogers: Are you planning on having that much food here so we can plan on having dinner here every night?
Cruz: I assume so.
Rogers: Oh, because I had an early dinner at someone’s house and then I came here.
Cruz: I assumed people would be rushing.
ITEM NO. (10) ADJOURNMENT
Chair Robles Dewitt: Okay, meeting adjourned (8:45 p.m.).